0:01

Hello, and welcome to Real Crime Profile.

0:03

This is Jim Clemente, retired FBI profiler,

0:05

former New York City prosecutor, ride producer

0:08

of Criminal Minds, Bluebeard, and co-host of

0:11

FBI Profilers Criminal Archives. And with

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me today is... Kathy

0:16

Canning-Mellow, retired profiler and

0:18

FBI agent and co-host

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of FBI Profilers

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Criminal Archives. I'm so glad that

0:26

we were able to get that in. Yeah,

0:28

and yeah, it's on Audible and you should

0:31

listen to it. It's 15 episodes of us

0:33

talking about cases that we worked and really

0:35

bringing everybody behind the scenes. But today we're

0:37

going to finalize our

0:39

discussion about the Piers Morgan

0:42

interview of Kevin Spacey and

0:44

the Spacey Unmasked docuseries

0:48

on Max. And we

0:50

are going to jump right

0:52

back into our discussion of what

0:56

Kevin Spacey admitted

0:58

to and didn't admit to,

1:00

leaked out information about, and

1:02

how complicated

1:05

these cases are. And just

1:09

coming to very flip and

1:11

rash decisions about these guys

1:13

who came forward based on

1:15

some behavior years later. Well,

1:20

doesn't really mean what you think it means

1:22

Piers, doesn't really mean what you wanted to

1:24

mean Kevin, but let's get back right into

1:26

this. So now in this interview

1:28

with Piers Morgan, they go back and talk

1:30

about the guy from 48 years

1:34

earlier, Greg, from Chats...Chatworths

1:36

High School. And

1:39

he says, well, you know, it was 48 years ago. He's

1:44

trying to, again, minimize, well, you know,

1:48

the guy claims I grabbed his junk and he

1:50

said, I did a lot of embarrassing things in

1:52

high school. Guy makes a claim that I grabbed

1:54

his junk while we were driving in a car.

1:56

I did a lot of embarrassing things when I was in high

1:59

school. I mean, you could

2:01

say it didn't happen. I did, I didn't say

2:03

it didn't happen. I said it's possible that might

2:05

have happened. I did a lot of embarrassing things

2:07

in high school. We all did. I mean, they

2:09

could go back to junior high

2:12

when I pulled Stephanie's hair in the

2:14

seventh grade. I mean, well, excuse

2:16

me, that's not an embarrassing thing that

2:18

you did. He's trying to normalize it

2:21

and rationalize it. Right. And again,

2:23

he said it could have happened. I

2:26

mean, Piers asked him, did it happen? He said it could have

2:28

happened. It

2:30

could have happened, but

2:32

it's not an embarrassing thing that you did.

2:35

It is a criminal thing that you did. You

2:38

don't have the right to touch anybody

2:40

else sexually, period, without

2:42

their permission, period. And

2:45

it just discounts the other person's

2:47

feelings in that too. It's like,

2:49

well, that's great. Yeah,

2:51

yeah. Personal space. Yeah.

2:55

But he basically, Piers is

2:57

basically saying that if

2:59

the documentary people had had this information,

3:02

the emails back and forth between those

3:04

two guys and those

3:06

pictures, that they probably would have taken

3:08

a different course. And

3:11

he said, the fact that everything that already

3:13

occurred in

3:17

civil and criminal courts, that this documentary

3:19

is going away against it and trying

3:21

to override it. And that's just not

3:23

true because these are additional allegations. Just

3:25

because you won one case or another

3:27

case, doesn't mean that you're going to

3:29

win all of them if they bring

3:31

cases. And some people can't bring cases

3:33

anymore because of the statute of limitations.

3:36

But the fact is he was not

3:38

acquitted of all these allegations. These allegations

3:40

came forward. And yes, they're in the

3:42

court of public opinion because there is

3:44

a statute of limitations. And

3:46

if there were no statute of limitations, these

3:48

people could bring a criminal

3:51

or civil case against

3:53

Kevin Spacey. But because of the

3:55

time lapse, they are not able

3:58

to do that. Now in cases...

4:00

with child sex crimes, there was

4:02

a stay in

4:05

the statute of limitations and the- Child

4:07

Victims Act, right? Yeah, the child

4:09

victims- That's how the Anthony Rapp allegation

4:11

came forward. And under the Child

4:13

Victims Act, they

4:16

can bring cases against

4:18

people and organizations that

4:21

victimized them in the past. So, you

4:23

know, that didn't happen with the adults,

4:25

but it could happen. And if so,

4:27

I think you'll see more cases against

4:29

him. His admissions that

4:31

he makes, you know, about bad

4:34

behavior, it is minimum, he's

4:37

minimizing it. He's minimizing these

4:39

sexual contacts, these unwanted sexual

4:42

contacts as bad behavior, unwanted

4:44

sexual contacts in a work

4:46

environment as bad behavior. Again,

4:48

that's criminal behavior, that's sexual

4:50

harassment. And they all seem

4:52

to corroborate each other. And

4:55

what all these men have

4:57

said basically turns what

5:00

Kevin says into

5:03

a really disgusting attempt

5:05

at rationalization, minimization and

5:07

projection, things that we see

5:10

sex offenders do all the time.

5:12

Yes, yep, I agree. So

5:15

now we're gonna get into the section that

5:18

took another turn of this interview

5:20

between Piers Morgan and Kevin Spacey.

5:23

And Piers showed Kevin

5:25

a picture of Glenn Maxwell,

5:28

who was in one of the thrones in

5:31

the throne room in Buckingham

5:33

Palace, and Kevin

5:35

Spacey is in the other one. And this picture

5:38

people are using to say that

5:40

he bought Glenn Maxwell into Buckingham

5:42

Palace. And he immediately, Kevin Spacey,

5:44

hold on, hold on, let me

5:46

put this into context. And

5:49

he says, Well, let me try to

5:51

put this in context. Before

5:53

I even get into that, in 2002, I

5:57

got a call from President Clinton, who I had...

5:59

I had become friends with over many years, inviting

6:03

me to come with him on an eight-day

6:05

humanitarian trip that he was going to make

6:07

to Africa and South Africa. And

6:10

I thought it was an incredible opportunity. And

6:13

apparently, he was not having great success with

6:15

getting people to say yes, because it wasn't

6:17

like one night in New York. It was

6:19

eight days in Africa and

6:21

South Africa. The

6:24

fact that it was primarily to

6:26

raise awareness and

6:29

prevention for AIDS, and particularly

6:31

for mothers who had

6:33

HIV to get the medication they

6:35

needed to not pass it on to their children. So

6:38

I said yes, absolutely. And

6:41

this was one of the most incredible experiences

6:45

I've ever had. And

6:47

then the president was invited by Tony Blair

6:49

to give the speech at Blackpool and Labour

6:52

Party Conference that year. What was that? So

6:55

we flew then to London. And

6:57

the president said to me, before we

7:00

leave tomorrow, you won't come. I'm gonna go to Buckingham Palace

7:02

tomorrow and see Prince Andrew, you won't come. So

7:04

I said, sure. I got a

7:07

call from President Bill Clinton. So

7:09

he's already, I'm very important. The

7:12

president calls me. And he invited

7:14

me on a trip. It

7:16

was a humanitarian mission to South Africa.

7:18

We're gonna stop at different places, Zimbabwe

7:21

and all this other place. And we-

7:24

And he asked so many other people, but

7:26

no one wanted to do it because we

7:28

had to go to Africa for a week.

7:30

For like eight days. Elevating himself. Eight days,

7:32

yeah. So I agreed to do it

7:34

and I'm the one that did this. And

7:36

there was a whole bunch of people on the plane. And

7:39

then he goes on to say, this

7:42

Maxwell woman, as

7:45

if he didn't know who she was, right? Was

7:48

on some of those flights. And

7:50

then he goes on to say, and

7:53

later, only later, were

7:56

we able to find out that the plane

7:58

that we were on. interview

20:00

and I think I mentioned, you know, when

20:02

I looked at the interview, I watched all

20:04

the comments and they're

20:07

all very vast majority

20:09

were in support of

20:11

Kevin Spacey. Because

20:13

he has fans. People love him. They, you

20:15

know, like me, they looked up to him

20:17

and respected him and they want that to

20:19

be true. So they kind of make it

20:21

true. But listen, canceling

20:24

him is one

20:27

thing. Putting him on

20:29

a set with vulnerable actors is

20:33

another thing. Who is

20:35

going to make that determination? That it's

20:37

okay for him to be on a

20:39

set to have access to guys again,

20:42

him to go to parties, to have

20:44

access to guys again, him to go

20:46

to openings and, you

20:48

know, after parties. And, you know, do

20:52

you think anybody has a right to

20:54

say it's okay when this guy

20:56

is, you know,

20:58

a serial offender? You

21:01

know, he has done these things. Apparently,

21:04

he has done these things for

21:07

decades. I

21:09

mean, in this interview, he's basically

21:11

admitted to it. Right. All

21:14

the way going back to high school. Exactly right.

21:17

And then trying to discount

21:20

the fact that because it was in high school,

21:22

it's okay. It's okay to

21:24

do embarrassing things in high school. Give

21:27

me a break. It just tells me that you

21:29

don't realize the severity of the things that you're

21:31

doing. So I think he's

21:33

still a risk. Now, you

21:37

know, maybe he'll go through sex

21:39

offender treatment rehab. By the way, rehab

21:41

is not sex offender treatment. He would

21:44

have to be, it would have to

21:46

be in treatment with somebody who treats

21:49

people who have committed sex

21:51

offenses, who understands this

21:53

like Dr. Fred Berlin would be great,

21:55

by the way, back in Johns

21:58

Hopkins, Maryland. He'd be

22:00

a great resource. And I

22:02

would suggest that for anybody who does

22:04

this kind of behavior, who recognizes this

22:07

in them, that they get sex offender

22:09

treatment from a sex offender treatment provider,

22:11

somebody who has decades

22:14

of experience doing this, because you'll

22:16

maximize the chances that you will

22:19

be able to help control your

22:21

behavior. And

22:23

when somebody has deeply

22:25

ingrained, reinforced sexual

22:27

arousal patterns that are negative,

22:30

that are violent, that are

22:32

invasive and abusive and aggressive,

22:34

you may not be able to actually change

22:37

their sexual arousal pattern, but you may be

22:39

able to teach them skills to avoid offending.

22:42

And that's what I hope Kevin Spacey does. If

22:44

you're out there listening,

22:47

anybody in Kevin Spacey's camp,

22:49

make sure he's getting the

22:51

help that he needs because

22:53

this interview clearly shows that

22:56

the rationalizations, minimizations and projections

22:58

are continuing. And that only

23:00

helps him justify offending.

23:03

It doesn't help him avoid

23:05

offending. Really

23:07

important statements. And I'm glad that we've

23:09

had the opportunity to talk about unmasked

23:12

and really dissect and parse out his

23:14

words in Paris Morgan's interview, because I

23:16

think they're very reflective of where he

23:19

is right now. Yeah. Well,

23:23

thank you, Kathy. And thank

23:25

you for your analysis. And I really

23:28

wanna say to anybody out there,

23:31

because I know there are more people out there

23:33

who have been sexually victimized

23:36

by this actor or

23:38

other actors and they

23:40

feel bad and

23:43

they don't want to ruin

23:45

their careers, but they are

23:48

suffering from trauma. Get help. There's plenty

23:50

of ways to get help. There's a

23:52

lot of therapy out there for victims.

23:55

There are support groups out there.

23:58

And I still, in

24:00

a support group of other men who

24:02

were sexually victimized as kids. And, you

24:04

know, it's such a helpful thing. It's

24:07

just the community is great. And to

24:09

be able to help others get through

24:11

it and to be able to understand

24:13

better what you went through, it's

24:16

a great thing. It's a wonderful

24:18

thing. So, Male Survivor is a

24:20

great organization, mailsurviver.org. And

24:23

they have experts like

24:25

Mary Shane and Richard Gartner

24:28

and Mike Liu. These are

24:30

all professional psychologists

24:33

who have worked

24:36

mainly with male survivors over

24:38

the course of their careers and they can

24:41

help you. So please reach out for help

24:43

and hang in there because it

24:45

does get better. It does get better. Great

24:48

commentary. And especially those that came

24:51

forward in that unmasked documentary. Now

24:54

that they've publicly disclosed this

24:56

information that had to have

24:58

been re-traumatizing for them. And

25:01

they're putting themselves to the people

25:03

who don't believe for whatever reason and

25:05

want to discredit them. So they

25:08

definitely need help. Yeah,

25:11

well, I hope they're okay. And,

25:13

you know, kudos to them. And

25:16

they're brave for doing what they did,

25:18

for coming forward and for speaking

25:21

their truth about what happened.

25:24

And despite the people

25:26

who don't understand why

25:29

somebody who was victimized might go

25:31

back. In my

25:33

case, I went back to work

25:35

for the guy who sexually victimized me because

25:37

he came into my new job and told

25:40

me that I abandoned my job. And I

25:42

was so afraid that it would get out

25:44

what happened to me that I just

25:46

went back. Now I made every effort

25:48

to never be alone with him again.

25:52

But I went back because I was

25:54

so afraid of disclosure. I didn't

25:56

want anybody to know what happened to me. And

26:00

in fact, even the following year, I went

26:03

back, but I brought my older brother with

26:05

me that time, because

26:07

I was trying to, again, avoid

26:09

being alone. But I was so afraid

26:11

of this guy and afraid of what

26:13

he could do to destroy my life

26:16

if people found out. That's

26:18

how I felt because as a victim, that's

26:20

what happens. You feel the guilt and shame.

26:22

You don't understand. I was a teenager. I

26:25

had no idea what grooming was. I had

26:27

no idea how manipulative he was. I had

26:29

no idea that he had multiple,

26:32

I mean, over 200 victims over

26:35

the course of his offending career. It's

26:38

hard to understand, but

26:40

that's how victims act because they take

26:42

on. They're not prepared for this. And

26:45

even these young adult men, they weren't

26:47

prepared for it. They didn't expect it

26:49

to happen. They really wanted the good

26:51

side to happen. And when they got

26:53

the bad side, they thought, well, that's

26:55

an aberration. Somehow I brought it on

26:57

myself. How did I do this? But

27:01

I feel bad about it and guilty and shameful. But

27:03

then they go on and they

27:05

try to get that same, the

27:07

good thing that they wanted in the first place. It's

27:10

not unusual. And I know a

27:12

lot of people don't understand this,

27:14

but talk to people who are

27:16

victimized, talk to them and

27:19

see how they acted in the real world.

27:22

And for example, watch

27:25

Baby Reindeer because that

27:27

is a perfect example. In that

27:29

series, there's a

27:31

perfect example of him going back to

27:34

the guy who sexually victimized him because

27:36

he wanted to believe

27:39

that all the accolades and all the

27:41

stuff he said about his career and

27:43

his writing, that all of that was

27:45

true. It was just that this other

27:47

thing happened and he just wanted to

27:49

sweep it under the rug. But it

27:52

wasn't sweepable. It was traumatic. And

27:55

it's a

27:57

great series. It's a

27:59

great depiction. of the

28:02

complexity of the results of

28:04

sexual victimization. Yeah,

28:06

but lots of parallels between that and this

28:08

series as well. Absolutely. Well,

28:11

thank you again, Kathy, and thank you to all of

28:13

our listeners around the world. And

28:17

until next time, this is Real Crime

28:19

Profile signing off.